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Post by markos50 on Sept 22, 2020 14:32:13 GMT
Here in Spain , we had very strict lockdown measures and they worked. The problem was that they opened up the borders in July and August to feed the economy, something that Spain is very reliant on, unlike the UK. Yes, we are all of because the whole country is now riddled with covid 19 and it seems that the 3 month lockdown was a waste of time. The problem in the UK was that people just dont follow the guide lines which is a whole different thing. Self inflicted.There is an element of truth in this - initially I think people did follow the guidance, but as it loosened, it became more complex... when could 2 households mix? Or 3? When could 15 meet? or 6? Or 30? It became incredibly complex. Now in my world, which is a permanent state of caution, this meant I am still not really mixing or going anywhere. Since March, I have been in a shop about 6 times. I haven't been in a pub nor eaten out, mainly due to the concern around passing the virus on to others. Not everybody thinks like that, however, and many people...not only the young... are finding fatigue in staying home and safe. My dad, for instance, is over 70. He is on his own, so I get he wants to go out and do things. He tells me pubs shouldn't be open, yet will go in them. Last week he took a mate out and they went to the Lake District for the day. Had dinner out. Breaking ALL the rules - but he doesn't think he is. He isn't stupid, but rules change so regularly and are so arbitrary, it is unreal. I'm not allowed to go over and see him now, cannot sit in his garden, yet I can go into a busy pub and mix with many different households. It's a fine balancing act I appreciate, but the simpler the rules, the better. ================================================================================================================== Without getting too political....its most likley your dad and yourself do not pose the risk, its others, but as I say its not PC to have an opinion or comment in such a way Read behind the headlines and rules and you can see the cause. Bit like football supporters being tarnished due to a few yobos! |
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Post by themaclad on Sept 22, 2020 14:41:20 GMT
Just as a matter of interest a letter in my paper estimated on the Graph of Doom yesterday that on the information in that graph everyone in the UK would be dead just after New Year.
Personal view non league football are still letting fans in go it’s cheap and fun and it will keep you sane
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PNE From Afar
Preston North End
#teamslikepreston
Posts: 4,495
Likes: 1,110
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Post by PNE From Afar on Sept 22, 2020 14:46:46 GMT
Here in Spain , we had very strict lockdown measures and they worked. The problem was that they opened up the borders in July and August to feed the economy, something that Spain is very reliant on, unlike the UK. Yes, we are all of because the whole country is now riddled with covid 19 and it seems that the 3 month lockdown was a waste of time. The problem in the UK was that people just dont follow the guide lines which is a whole different thing. Self inflicted.There is an element of truth in this - initially I think people did follow the guidance, but as it loosened, it became more complex... when could 2 households mix? Or 3? When could 15 meet? or 6? Or 30? It became incredibly complex. Now in my world, which is a permanent state of caution, this meant I am still not really mixing or going anywhere. Since March, I have been in a shop about 6 times. I haven't been in a pub nor eaten out, mainly due to the concern around passing the virus on to others. Not everybody thinks like that, however, and many people...not only the young... are finding fatigue in staying home and safe. My dad, for instance, is over 70. He is on his own, so I get he wants to go out and do things. He tells me pubs shouldn't be open, yet will go in them. Last week he took a mate out and they went to the Lake District for the day. Had dinner out. Breaking ALL the rules - but he doesn't think he is. He isn't stupid, but rules change so regularly and are so arbitrary, it is unreal. I'm not allowed to go over and see him now, cannot sit in his garden, yet I can go into a busy pub and mix with many different households. It's a fine balancing act I appreciate, but the simpler the rules, the better. In Spain, if the Guardia Civil say do something, you do it. They are dressed the part, are usually big built and they have a gun! If the police in the UK say something, someone probably pushes it to the limits knowing they will get away with it. A demise in respect for the authorities IMO. Spain will get over it in a month or so because people who live here respect the rules, obviously not the holiday makers. Where I live has a huge influx of people from Madrid and now they have been where I live and spread the covid19 , they have returned to Madrid and now most of it is under lockdown. I have spent 6 months without travelling ( although my work needs it) and only mixing with people that I know live here and have complied to the rules and only mixing in our houses. Our local pub would have lost a fortune if it werent for the tourists! Life is different but good. Those that dont care ruin it for everyone. Health or economy is a fine margin.. Anyway back to football and fans returning...... |
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dawsonsjs
Preston North End
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Post by dawsonsjs on Sept 22, 2020 15:09:09 GMT
The place where I have been where I have witnessed the most widespread and flagrant breaking of lockdown rules is France with zilch social distancing on buses, in supermarkets, restaurants etc.
And if one looks at where Covid has been rampaging in Spain it has absolutely nothing to do with opening borders...it is the poorer more densely populated areas of the larger cities such as Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, Valencia...indeed some tourist hotspots such as the Balearics have had amongst the lower recorded rates.
And it's exactly the same in this country, crap housing, over congested urban populations have suffered the worst...and don't forget that after Holland England has the second most dense population in Europe.
I've personally taken the view that this virus is with us until a vaccine is found and to get on with my life...been out cycling in Derbyshire today and rode into a crowded Bakewell to get some lunch. I think the vast majority of people in this country have been and are continuing to be very sensible.....indeed the shopping arrangements are superior to anything I've see n in Europe...people here do queue and keep their distance, limited numbers are allowed in, stores are well marked with arrows and have hand sanitation points.
As always it's a minority who spoil things for the majority. I just cannot see the point in any further restrictions when current ones are not enforced. The people who behave responsibly are going to carry on doing so, and those who don't will carry on the same. The thing that requires doing is enforcing the rules that exist.
And 'no' I havn't bought season tickets to save money...firstly it does help the club's cash flow to have money coming in at the start of the season and secondly it is damn sight more convenient and quicker than having to keep ordering and queueing to collect tickets.
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Post by daveoggy on Sept 22, 2020 15:17:38 GMT
Where abouts in France are you talking about dawsonsjs, I have a place there in Pitou Charente and there seemed to be compliance to the rules when we were there during the summer. We are in a little village but go to a couple of larger towns to do bigger shopping / DIY stuff and its has been great. Villages are in dismay at the Parisiens as they mass migration for summer vacation is responsible to for the spread. |
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PNE From Afar
Preston North End
#teamslikepreston
Posts: 4,495
Likes: 1,110
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Post by PNE From Afar on Sept 22, 2020 15:33:11 GMT
The place where I have been where I have witnessed the most widespread and flagrant breaking of lockdown rules is France with zilch social distancing on buses, in supermarkets, restaurants etc. And if one looks at where Covid has been rampaging in Spain it has absolutely nothing to do with opening borders...it is the poorer more densely populated areas of the larger cities such as Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, Valencia...indeed some tourist hotspots such as the Balearics have had amongst the lower recorded rates.And it's exactly the same in this country, crap housing, over congested urban populations have suffered the worst...and don't forget that after Holland England has the second most dense population in Europe. I've personally taken the view that this virus is with us until a vaccine is found and to get on with my life...been out cycling in Derbyshire today and rode into a crowded Bakewell to get some lunch. I think the vast majority of people in this country have been and are continuing to be very sensible.....indeed the shopping arrangements are superior to anything I've see n in Europe...people here do queue and keep their distance, limited numbers are allowed in, stores are well marked with arrows and have hand sanitation points. As always it's a minority who spoil things for the majority. I just cannot see the point in any further restrictions when current ones are not enforced. The people who behave responsibly are going to carry on doing so, and those who don't will carry on the same. The thing that requires doing is enforcing the rules that exist. And 'no' I havn't bought season tickets to save money...firstly it does help the club's cash flow to have money coming in at the start of the season and secondly it is damn sight more convenient and quicker than having to keep ordering and queueing to collect tickets., While I have agreed with a lot of your posts regarding football, this is the second time recently that you are telling me about somewhere I live, or have lived without any first hand experience. You quoted facts years out of date about Chile where I lived for 9 years. Now you are telling me that the tourists from abroad and the cities in Spain haven't 10 folded the cases in Andalucía where I live? It is certainly not a poor area where I live and covid19 is rampant. You do realise the Balearics are sparsely populated islands that rely on tourism? The ones that wouldn't let people from the UK in unless they did a 2 week lockdown on return? Sometimes you talk so much hyperbole that the rest of your posts become less important. Stick to what you know as fact. Telling someone while sat in yorkshire what the place that they live is like, makes your posts worthless. Great that you buy a season ticket so you dont have to order one every week. I did say most , not all , but your denial of this probably means more. |
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Post by Mooney on Sept 22, 2020 16:00:44 GMT
pne1971, dawsonsjs, Mooney, themaclad, jaiyenyen, walburghian, Bobby Ham's sarnie, NobbyDawson, MightyPNE, px6, SLC, PNE From Afar, markos50, Back to football anyone? SORRY!
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Post by ProudPreston29 on Sept 22, 2020 17:45:06 GMT
 Is Messi leaving Barcelona to come to Deepdale ....NO Is Rooney leaving Derbyshire to come to Deepdale...NO Is Mbappe leaving PSG to come to Deepdale .........NO Are us fans returning to Deepdale .................NOT NOW NO The last line is what this thread started as , not Spain France Chile ..Derbyshire any chance of getting back on topic ? |
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dawsonsjs
Preston North End
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Post by dawsonsjs on Sept 22, 2020 18:28:51 GMT
There is is no objective evidence Afar that 'tourists from abroad and the cities in Spain' are responsible for the increase in Covid in Spain.
An issue is that during the first wave only testing older people who went into hospital was prevalant. Statistics from the Carlos III public health institute in Madrid show that 25% of new cases across Spain are being detected in people aged 15-29, while those aged 15-59 account for 71% of new cases. The most overrepresented groups are men and women aged 15-44 (and women aged 89 and over).
The most plausible and accepted explanation for the rise in Spain is down to young people moving about more and needing to get to work – and, to do that, they need to use public transport in the big cities (where most of the new cases are, and not in the more common tourists areas other than Andalucia! And I did not specifically mention Andalucia.
Another explanation that has a lot of support in clinical circles is that the 3 months lockdown was lifted a month too soon and before the tracking systems were ready with a lot of people treating the virus as a seasonal phenomenon like flu and rushing out to bars, the beaches etc. This is considered the main reason for the rise in Catalonia, not tourists.
I might not live in Spain although since the outbreak of Covid I have been on the Iberian peninsula and in France, however as a former senior University Medical School Research Fellow I am capable of reading and understanding clinical statistics.
It may well be, indeed probable, that the increase in visitors to Andalucia over the last couple of months has contributed to the sharp increase in local Covid cases but to solely attribute the increase down to this is plain wrong when there is no way of separating causation from visitors and locals serving them and when there has been a sharp increase in the amount of testing going on. As most of the cases are asymptomatic for all anybody knows what is now being detected has been a round for months and spreading in the local population. The arrival of visitors is coincidental and maybe contributory to the spread but , as I say, there is zilch evidence on causation.
=======
Which bring us to spectators at football.
There is an increasing amount of hard evidence that proximity and a lack of ventilation contribute to the spread of Covid.
I think we can wave goodbye to a return to Deepdale for the best part of the season. The moral step for the club is to offer refunds. STs were sold on the contractual understanding that only a couple of games would be missed.
At the vey least the club needs to offer the difference between the ST match price and the £10 iFollow figure.
And players all over the country need to have their contracts ripped up and take 60/70% pay cuts.
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Post by walburghian on Sept 22, 2020 18:56:50 GMT
PNEfromafar, understand the rules - Daws is never wrong, even when he changes his mind. Useful example, Tyrees Dolan, first he slams North End for letting him go then says he's no use anyway.
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PNE From Afar
Preston North End
#teamslikepreston
Posts: 4,495
Likes: 1,110
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Post by PNE From Afar on Sept 22, 2020 19:06:31 GMT
Andalucía with one of the lowest infection rates in Europe to it going crazy in the tourist season. You might not live in Spain? You don't live in Spain is more accurate. Like most things in your post, vague and misleading. You've been travelling around France and Spain during the epidemic? Stop reading the BBC and making a judgement and passing it on as fact. Stick to football please. That you seem to know what you're talking about. This is pointless discussion. Back to football everybody.  |
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Post by ProudPreston29 on Sept 22, 2020 19:08:10 GMT
Is Messi leaving Barcelona to come to Deepdale ....NO Is Rooney leaving Derbyshire to come to Deepdale...NO Is Mbappe leaving PSG to come to Deepdale .........NO Are us fans returning to Deepdale .................NOT NOW NO The last line is what this thread started as , not Spain France Chile ..Derbyshire any chance of getting back on topic ? |
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Post by Mooney on Sept 22, 2020 19:11:47 GMT
Maybe back for the play offs
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pne1971
Preston North End
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Post by pne1971 on Sept 23, 2020 9:24:29 GMT
Season ticket for me is what a fanatic does, it’s my way of showing the loyalty that I wish 25000 more fans did.
I can’t personally whine about north end fans being fickle and aggressively disloyal if I don’t back them myself! 😄
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Post by themaclad on Sept 29, 2020 15:29:19 GMT
insanity rules
On Saturday Conference North and South clubs enter the cup. If any of them are drawn at home they cannot have fans in, if they are drawn away to a non elite non league side home fans are allowed by no away fans.
Wealdstone have been drawn at home they are an elite non league side so no fans allowed at their home draw however they are streaming the game live to the club house for 40 fans. The clubhouse over looks the pitch they have been told that they cannot watch the game through the clubhouse windows and will have to close the curtains. Unbelievable Jeff
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Post by themaclad on Oct 10, 2020 7:46:30 GMT
EFL to allow clubs to show and home and possibly away games in clubs hospitality suites only as hospitality packages
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Post by Mooney on Oct 10, 2020 8:24:20 GMT
EFL to allow clubs to show and home and possibly away games in clubs hospitality suites only as hospitality packages So... watching the game indoors is safe, outdoors not... yes, that makes lots of sense. |
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pne1971
Preston North End
Posts: 5,119
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Post by pne1971 on Oct 10, 2020 9:01:05 GMT
I’m guessing the clubs have said “surely if pubs can show football safely, it’s safe to watch live”
The EFL have responded with “if you have a pub on site/club house, you can show the games on the tv”
Friggin ridiculous
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Post by themaclad on Oct 10, 2020 10:21:50 GMT
EFL to allow clubs to show and home and possibly away games in clubs hospitality suites only as hospitality packages So... watching the game indoors is safe, outdoors not... yes, that makes lots of sense. By the way mate of mine saw a gig in Blackpool at the Waterloo pub |
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dawsonsjs
Preston North End
Posts: 9,600
Likes: 3,236
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Post by dawsonsjs on Oct 10, 2020 16:37:51 GMT
I think it is impossible for any government to come up with a set of rules that cover every contingency...although the current arrangement seems particularly bizarre, you could watch the game in a pub or, I don't seem why not according to the latest rules, on a concourse, but not within the ground. Bonkers.
However I still maintain that it is not safe to allow fans back into grounds..I've just been reading up on the way the Germans have handled it with 25% returning...the local infection rate has got to be below 35 per 100,000 before this is allowed. That seems sensible to me, along with all the other measures, but we havn't got anywhere near that in this country. With the UK's current R rates there would be no spectators allowed at matches in Europe's most successful country in managing Covid, although the Finns have also done well with a complete clampdown and border control.
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Post by themaclad on Oct 10, 2020 18:53:46 GMT
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Post by NobbyDawson on Oct 10, 2020 19:16:57 GMT
Love that third photo. Reminds me of playing in the Sunday League 50 years ago (probably at least 20 players were nursing a hangover)
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Post by themaclad on Oct 10, 2020 19:27:36 GMT
Love that third photo. Reminds me of playing in the Sunday League 50 years ago (probably at least 20 players were nursing a hangover) The houses behind the goal had a smashed window due to epically bad half time shooting didn’t get the ball back |
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Post by makemineapint on Oct 10, 2020 20:43:40 GMT
Looks a bit like Atherton LR to me ?
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Post by themaclad on Oct 11, 2020 6:13:48 GMT
Looks a bit like Atherton LR to me ? Correct |
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Post by mid010101 on Oct 11, 2020 8:27:13 GMT
Love that third photo. Reminds me of playing in the Sunday League 50 years ago (probably at least 20 players were nursing a hangover) I seem to remember a lot of mud 50 years ago |
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Post by themaclad on Oct 11, 2020 17:49:34 GMT
Don’t forget this Thursday it is 49000 positive tests/cases even though positives have gone down every day bar one since last Wednesday.
The 7 day rolling average death toll in London with a population of about 9 million is a massive 4 per day.
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dawsonsjs
Preston North End
Posts: 9,600
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Post by dawsonsjs on Oct 11, 2020 20:04:51 GMT
The definition of dying from Covid rest on being tested positive within the previous 28 days...how many have died who have not been tested within the previous 28 days? And of the remaining 92% how many have been left with both short and, worse still, long term conditions having serious adverse impacts on their lives and those of their families, conditions like damaged lungs , hearts and brains. Just one young adult sustaining a brain injury can cost the state over £2 million in lifelong care. It doesn't even bear thinking about the future cost to the country of simply supporting those who have survived Covid.
I rarely watch TV..only thing I ever regularly watch is Quest footy..but Friday night I thought I'd watch Have I News but after 5 mins of smug Merten and Hislop couldn't stand it any longer and turned over,,,,,,where Kate Garrraway was being interviewed in her garden on Gardeners World. I can't believe anybody listening to her and seeing her children finding solace in gardening would rush back to be anywhere near a crowd...after contracting Covid her husband has now been in a coma for several months , that is on life support with no signs of recovery. They live in London...so as he is not clinically dead he wouldn't figure in the number of people now dying in London, nor will the thousands of others with continuing consequences. Sadly the unfortunate ones going on to die don't reflect the devastation that Covid is having on those contracting it and their families.
All that people are being told is that MOST people will have mild and moderate symptoms and can expect to recover within a week or so....not that it will take many months for those with more severe symptoms to pull through and of these a number will be left with permanent damage.
We've 1100 students with Covid within 2 miles of where we live....it was very noticeable this morning whilst on the Uni's 3G footy facility how few were about, even lads turning up for games were wearing masks....marked contrast on even the previous week, very few at the local shops as well and students walking to them from Halls were all wearing masks. They appear to have got the message about socialising and that whilst thankfully vast majority will have no symptoms and other recover quickly, a number won't.
Until this virus is under control and everywhere with R rates of 3.5 and less I just think it is ridiculous to support a return of fans to footy or other sports,,,,I know a number of the gov's rules are nonsensically contradictory but these do not detract from the bigger picture.
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chris1987
Preston North End
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Post by chris1987 on Oct 13, 2020 10:28:54 GMT
Full house last evening at the London Palladium for an evening with Arsenal Wenger. 🤷♂️ Seems strange that this is allowed but open air football matches are still not open. Absolute joke.
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dawsonsjs
Preston North End
Posts: 9,600
Likes: 3,236
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Post by dawsonsjs on Oct 13, 2020 14:11:51 GMT
Not quite so, some of the reporting has been wildly inaccurate.....London Palladium holds 2,200 and they are using just one third of the seats, 700 max. Those coming in were seated by bubbles in allocated seats....mask wearing was mandatory, even door handles at the Palladium have been changed to ones with ions to combat bacteria.
No comparison with football (although it doesn't make it right). Much of this country's cultural heritage is on the verge of going down the pan with the loss of years of work and tens of thousands of jobs. Hence over the last week the government has been handing out £millions to theatres, arts venues etc. Vast majority are not owned by wealthy individuals (some in the West End are) but by community associations, Councils, Trusts etc.
On the other hand during the window Prem spent over a £billion on transfer fees and even in L2 players are on an average pay of between £40,000 and £50,000 a year. Whilst it may rightly be maintained that a number of clubs also face going down the pan a neutral observer may well conclude its their own fault for living beyond their means and that there's enough money around in football to support everyone |(not that the greedy Prem would share TV money etc).
Hence theatres etc need to be opened up to survive...it's an economic decision and I for one welcome the move even though I consider an indoor crowd of 700 is ridiculous even though the London R rate is now below 1.....way below many parts of the North and Midlands.
Even if you just let 20% into most |Champ grounds , such as Deepdale, you are talking nearly 5,000 people....all using the same entrances , toilets, concourses etc ....and inevitably shouting....and in an area with an astronomical R rate. I don't know what it is exactly in Preston but in S Ribble and Chorley it's been around 23 to 26 per 100,000.
Hence I see what happening with theatres as a necessary economic step to opening up, move to a measure of normality, although with some misgivings over the size of the Palladium attendance, but there's no way that football is ready for this...or, it can be argued, needs it.
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